One of the most influential shifts of 2023! A deep dive into Saturn in Pisces, while also exploring Saturn Returns for Saturn in Pisces natives.
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Jordane Maree: Hello beautiful, welcome to Girl and Her Moon the podcast. As always, I am deeply grateful and overflowing with love as you walk upon this journey with us. Thank you so much for being here, for tuning into this episode. Before we dive into this Saturn in Pisces and Saturn Return episode, I am very excited to announce two things.
First, after a few requests from you, from our community, we have now created a Saturn Return astrology reading. So if you have Saturn in Pisces in your natal chart and you are approaching 28 to 30 or 56 to 58 years of age. As of March this year, you are journeying through your Saturn Return, which is a powerful coming of age period. Your Saturn Return holds incredible potential for shifts in your life, for growth, for realizations, all aimed at coming into this deeper expression and truth and connection and alignment with yourself and with your path. So throughout this reading, we will explore your unique invitations throughout your Saturn Return, including your lifelong themes of learning and mastery with Saturn, areas of potential challenge and how to open to and work with them, and of course, your unique opportunities for growth and how to best harness and work throughout this time with them. So I will pop the link to this reading in the show notes, which leads me to announcement number two.
As of March 20, we are holding our annual Equinox sale. So we’re going to have some really exciting discounts on our website, and we’re actually offering a $50 gift voucher and a $120 gift voucher for every human that’s interested. These come with a minimum spend of $200, and you will find the codes on our websites and in the show notes below. And I invite you to explore our membership, where we hold monthly astrology guidance, astrology classes, energy work, guest healer workshops, and more. With this discount, you can get $50 off our annual membership. So 12 months of classes, of inner connection, of energy work and techniques, of exploring soul and humanness, and receiving workshops from different guest healers each month with different spiritual modalities. And it’s currently $222 for the entire year. You can get $50 off for this Equinox sale.
Or if you are after something personalized, we have a beautiful selection of both tarot and astrology readings. Whether you’re wanting to explore your purpose and your soul’s evolution, or maybe your year ahead, your career, love, spirit guides, your spiritual gifts, there’s some really beautiful selections available. I invite you to explore both our tarot and astrology offerings. So this sale will commence on the 20th and will continue until the 27th. It’s a real gift to be able to offer greater accessibility on our offerings through these little chapters throughout the year. We also have payment plans available with PayPal for all tarot and astrology readings too. So I would love to welcome you into the membership where we are just overflowing with gifts inside of or take it deeper with a reading. If you have any questions about the sale or any of our services, please feel free to email us at support at Girl and Her Moon. Thank you so much for listening. With so much love, I hope you enjoy the upcoming episode.
Jordane Maree: Hello, lovely Issa. Thank you for being here again.
Issa: Hi, Jordane. So great to be here to talk about Saturn and Pisces and all of the movements of the sky that are coming through it.
Jordane Maree: So I think it’s a really exciting transit. If you go on any astrology page at the moment, it’s talking about how exciting March is. It’s been mentioned here on the podcast by you. In our membership, there’s this certain spark about March. One of the reasons for that is Saturn moving into Pisces amongst some other things. Saturn being an outer planet, being further away from the Earth, being much slower in its movement and much bigger, it means that we aren’t as familiar or I guess the movements of Saturn aren’t as integrated into our day-to-day lives of the inner planets Mercury and Venus for example. We know how to hold space and move through the movements, the quicker movements of those inner planets and being able to integrate them into the way that we’re already living. But when we’re looking at these outer planets Saturn and Pluto that’s also moving this month, it’s as if we’re starting a whole new chapter of our lives.
Saturn’s in a sign for two to three years and so we’re starting this new two to three-year chapter of our experience. We’re in new terrain. We’re entering into this new world where we’re going to play out the experience of Saturn in Pisces for the next few years. That’s why it’s something that’s exciting and worth mentioning. That’s why out of all of the movements that are happening this month, which are weekly if we’re looking at the constant movement of astrology, that’s why we’re picking this one up and we’re looking at it a bit more closely.
Issa: Absolutely. This is definitely the kickoff to a whole crescendo that will keep coming for the next couple of months in an outer planets changing signs. And Jupiter is not exactly an outer planet, but Jupiter and Saturn are social planets and so they’re the furthest out before you really get into outer. Saturn is the last planet that we can see with the naked eye. And so that’s why Saturn is considered the threshold of the third dimension of Earth and why it’s our builder of time and space. Because until we had telescopes, that was as far out as we knew existed. And so when we’re dealing with outer planet movements because they are slower, because they take longer to move around the sun, we are — in a sense, I feel I agree with you in that we don’t have as connected in our daily experience, a visceral relationship to them the way that we might when everyone’s talking about Mercury or Venus or Mars or even the moon.
But I also find, and maybe this is sort of my evolutionary astrology perspective, that the outer planets are almost integrated at a deeper level because they’re so slow that they have the ability to integrate, integrates another key word for Saturn. So they kind of infuse in a way that’s maybe a little more subtle and you don’t necessarily realize it while it’s occurring. But when you look backwards, you’re like that was the backdrop of what was going on actually. So when I think about the outer planets, they’re sort of if it was in music or something, it’s the bass and the drum beat and that foundational part of the music that’s really holding everything. And then the inner planets, the personal planets, they give some of that melody and harmony that starts bringing it alive. And you kind of notice that because it’s the more frilly part of the sound that you’re paying attention to. But without that baseline, it wouldn’t have anything to sit on. So it’s actually what really creates the depth of our experience and the complexity, I feel like.
Jordane Maree: And it’s so interesting that you said it’s often you don’t realize the impact that it’s having in the moment. Because when a lot of people talk about their Saturn returns, and we’re going to explore this a bit later in this episode, a lot of the time it is in retrospect where it’s they saw it all happening once they’re out of it and they can look back and they can see the why, the timing, they can receive the wisdom from it as well. But it’s usually in retrospect that people are talking about their Saturn return in this way that actually makes sense.
Issa: Completely. Yes. And especially when the outer planets have an aspect to an inner planet, that’s when you feel it really personally. So it’s if Saturn is conjunct your moon, then you’re going to have a very personal experience of this transit. Whereas if it’s not aspecting anything in your chart, you may not notice it as much. So that’s also part of why we’re really aware of things in the moment more so than others. But I think a lot of times in that kind of activation in the chart, let’s say Saturn is going to come into your10th house or something and come conjunct with Uranus. Well, you might lose your job at that moment in time. And in that moment, you might feel like oh my gosh, I didn’t expect to lose my job that Uranus is going to bring in that sudden unexpected change. And you can just focus on that in the moment. But then when you look back at it 10 years later, you realize that was actually a pivotal moment of change and growth in your life that set up all of these other events.
So it’s just kind of that perspective of being able to have that ability to look backwards and the retrospective that allows us to see things that you’re just not available to see in that moment, which is a certain kind of humility as well that Pisces is going to be bringing in with us to have the humility to realize no matter how aware and conscious or enlightened I am as a human being, I always am limited in what I can see. There is always the unknown. There’s always the unseen. There’s always the mysteries. And I have to stay in that truth that I’m always only seeing a part and not the whole, at least what we’re embodied.
Jordane Maree: Which then takes us into the trust and the faith and the surrender piece that I’m sure will be a massive theme throughout all of this. I did want to start with just deepening into Saturn itself before we go into the movement of Saturn, just so we can have this deeper understanding of this planet. Because if you’re not familiar with Saturn and you want to do a quick Google search, you’ll probably only read some bad stuff, some really only a very small piece of the picture, and there is so much more available. So did you want to talk about your experience and your relationship and understanding of this planet a little bit?
Issa: Yeah, absolutely. So Saturn is the planet of time and space, as I mentioned. It’s our building blocks of this universe. And at least from an evolutionary astrology perspective, everything is completely neutral. So as much as sort of more traditional or mundane astrology will look at this from positives or negatives, and certainly where Saturn gets a bad rap, Saturn is really ultimately about building maturity over time. And that can get a bad rap for the people on the planet who want things to be easy all of the time and don’t understand yet the value of a challenge. But Saturn is really here to mature that understanding. And I think so much in the realms of astrology, that’s where we get sort of these more almost ego level perspectives of what’s going on, which would categorize it in good and bad versus sort of a divine orchestration of growth.
And ultimately, the desire of the soul is to evolve, period. That’s really the only desire. And so in order to evolve, we have to have challenges. And so Saturn brings those to us so that we can level up. And so some key words that you can think about with Saturn is being able to create self-discipline, building your character, having integrity, self-respect, maturity. These are all things that ultimately we want to be. We want to be somebody who has great character and stands on moral ground and lives in integrity. We want to be respectful to others and to ourselves. These are things that we do value overall in society, but we may not always value the process and how we arrive at that character building process. And so if you’re feeling fearful around Saturn, understand that, or maybe at least one way that I’ve kind of changed my own relationship to it, Saturn rules my chart. I’m a Capricorn rising, so I have had a lot of relationship with Saturn. And understanding that the repetition, the process, the stability that comes through the repetition is part of what creates mastery.
And being able to not see those tests from a place of, because Saturn can be called karma too, but it’s interesting that people also say that word as a negative or a positive. It’s like if you are not behaving in ways that have integrity in how you’re acting in the world, then you maybe are afraid of your karma. But if you know that you came with your heart, that you were in right action and that you held that level of, I don’t want to keep saying integrity, but if you’re in that integrity in your behavior, that the karma that comes to you is something that you’ll be very grateful for, that can really support you on that next step of the journey. It’s not inherently a negative when we receive our karma. So it’s just about being able to understand that every action that we take has an equal and opposite reaction and response. And so knowing that that’s a basic building block of the universe, we can come responsibly in the way in which we behave in our lives and live our lives, and then there’s absolutely nothing to fear.
And when we get to those test points, if we’re prepared, if we have done that work, we get to the test and you get that A plus without a problem. So it’s like we need to get to those tests because we are evolving through spirals. And so we can wonder, why am I dealing with this again? Why is this coming up again? And it’s because Saturn has these seven-year points of tests, even relationships. Many people will know that seven years is that test in the relationship. If you can get through that, then you’re golden for a while. And so it’s understanding those timing elements to say, “I have done this before, and I learned all of these lessons. And because I’ve learned these lessons, well, how do I know I really learned them unless it comes up again and I can put them to work?” And then through being able to interact in a new way based on what you learned, then you move on. You grow. You mature through that process.
So rather than having the relationship of, why is this happening again? It’s like it’s time for my test again, and I get to show myself, the universe, all that is that I really learned my lesson. And once that gets checked off, if you will, the doors open, and you move on to the next stage. So it’s important to have those graduations. You can also think of Saturn as a graduation in your life, too, especially when you’re coming back around to old themes that are getting addressed again.
Jordane Maree: And I usually, I like to see, you mentioned that spiral. I often see that when something does present itself again, and not in a way that it’s just this feeling of this annoying pattern that I just keep reliving and I can’t get out of but not addressing, but when it’s no, I’ve been with this thing. I’ve really, really been with this thing. Why is it happening again? To me, that is this mirroring of access to more depth in this space, this greater capacity to hold more of it. Like you said, that graduation, you’re not just experiencing it again, you’re experiencing it in a whole other way with a whole different space of capacity and emotional intelligence and all of these different things so that it can be addressed or so you can just be with it in a way that holds so much more depth, that spiral that descends as well as ascends. But I love that you use the word mastery because also being in Capricorn Rising, Saturn rules my chart. It’s with me often.
And so mastery is a word that I often bring into my awareness when I think of Saturn. Because mastery, you can’t just be given mastery. Mastery isn’t something that can be rushed. I think it can’t really be reached unless it’s challenged over and over and over again. It can’t be just a mental learning or understanding, it has to be experienced, embodied, integrated, and you become it, basically. So it’s whatever dance you’re dancing with Saturn, you’re here to master it. And I would love your perspective on this, but from a lot of the learning that I’ve explored with Saturn, to me, it always feels really relevant about the house placement that it’s in. And you could almost look at the house placement as an area that you’re here to master.
Issa: Oh, absolutely, for sure. Wherever Capricorn is in the chart ruling that house, and then also where Saturn is in your chart, both would speak to that. And I love what you said about integration and embodiment. That’s really a lot of it too. Because ultimately Saturn, especially in regards to Capricorn, brings us into leadership. It’s the elder, it’s the crone, it’s the wise woman or wise man or wise person. And it’s about what can only occur through time. It’s even in certain relationships, friendships, lovers, even with your own family, it’s like when we have a certain number of years with them, there’s a depth to the relationship that you cannot force into it. You cannot create that just out of desire. It only comes through time. And so Saturn really helps us understand how space expands the greater we have time with it.
And there’s something so fundamental about that in being able to be satisfied with life and to really feel like the desire is fully cultivated and where you can fully appreciate and land in really the joy of living. I found at least that as more time goes on and we learn those lessons, when we get to those tests again and we actually do learn them, there’s a way in which you trust yourself more, where you can rely on yourself more, that you are capable of this. And that builds a depth in your own character where you — Saturn is also the father archetype. So we all have the father within us as well. And that ability to say you are sturdy, you are stable, I can rely on you. That is something that takes many repetitions before you realize that in yourself. And the more that you can sit into that part of the relationship or cultivate that part of the relationship with yourself, the less dependent you end up being on others because how to meet your own needs. And as you get older from that place of leadership, this is about mature leadership and the process that’s necessary for character building so that you can actually truly lead others.
We know we have a deficit of true mature leadership on this planet right now. And so it’s we can see how when we don’t go through the process, we can see how privilege actually takes away or makes it even more difficult to build that character, to build that maturity, to be able to lead from a place of graciousness and understanding and fully understanding the whole because we’ve experienced it and we’ve had to climb up that hill. The animal totem for Capricorn is the sea goat. And if we just take the goat on its own, then that’s the amazing thing about the mountain goat specifically. No matter how difficult the terrain is, that mountain goat figures out how to get to the top of the mountain. If you ever watch a mountain goat climbing up the mountain, it’s crazy. You’re just “Whoa, this tiny little animal who doesn’t look overly coordinated or anything. And somehow, slowly but surely, he gets there.” And that’s an important thing too to think about the sea goat, the full animal archetype of Saturn because that tail is in the water.
The other side of the axes of Capricorn is cancer. And so that sea goat has his tail in the water connected to the mother. This is actually on the feminine axes, even though it’s the father archetype, which I’ve always found a little confusing. But to me, it’s like that integration of our internal parent of the mother and the father, cancer being the mother. And so this is our disciplinarian parent. And so the sea part connects the mother and then the goat part connects in the father and allows them to be in one entity at one time and to be able to understand that discipline and that compassion and nurturing. And ultimately, Saturn is the container. It builds the structure to hold our emotional body, to hold the cancerian energy that’s internal. So it’s really ultimately about structure and how structure and discipline actually create safety. This is also our security axes.
And so this is how I care for and nurture my inner child or children is by creating a safe home for them to live in. And all of the ways that we do that mentally, physically or otherwise. And so for anyone who’s struggling with Saturn, know that there might be some relationship issues with what structure is that maybe needs to evolve. Because I certainly am somebody that really struggles with structure, repetition, consistency. I’m more of a nonlinear kind of human. And that certainly goes in with the Saturn and Pisces that we’ll get into more. But what I realized as I did my Kundalini Yoga teacher training, because we had two and a half hours a day of yoga that we had to do every single day. And it was for a year. So it’s how do I fit this in no matter what’s going on in my life? And the idea was giving 10% of your day, two and a half hours, which is the time period of Saturn. Saturn is a two-and-a-half-year transit through a house. So because of retrogrades, it can get close to three years, but it will start entering and leaving in that two-and-a-half-year window.
And so you work with the Saturn time period every day no matter what as a daily self-discipline to give 10% of your day to your soul. And I really struggled with the feasibility of that as much as it sounded nice. But I was committed to it and no matter what was going on even if I got less sleep I made sure to bring my practices in. And what I realized after about three months was this consistency is actually allowing me to go higher, to build the mastery, to build the repetitions that allow me to go deeper into my spiritual practice and knowing of self. And that is so much of what Saturn in Pisces is really going to be here helping us work on and for everybody on the planet in the next about three years is what it’s going to take for it to fully leave. But the next three years is really a time to be building that Pappa is what it’s called in yoga. It’s the internal fire that cleanses and purifies and deepens the spiritual world internally.
So it’s actually a hug that’s containment. And certainly if you don’t want that hug it doesn’t feel good. But if you do and you are welcoming it then that containment feels beautiful. It’s safe. It makes you feel known and loved and cared for. So it’s how can you create structures in your own life that provide the containment for love to grow deeper within you.
Jordane Maree: I really appreciate all of that. I think that throughout this time of Saturn in Pisces there’s isn’t it’s an a really one of the many things it is is an opportunity to really create our own relationship with that idea of structure and discipline and commitment. Because I think if we look at the way in which these principles are displayed in a lot of just what’s happening in the world we can try to relate to discipline from this almost not enoughness or we can relate to commitment or any of these things from a space of — it’s just left me.
Issa: Are you thinking blockages and limitations?
Jordane Maree: Not so much. I think I think just organization, structure, commitment these feel very harsh almost. And it’s you need to abandon yourself in the name of the thing that you’re creating or the thing that you’re committing to or whatever it is. You need to abandon that in our movement and intuition and flow that is natural to our being in order to have that thing over there. And so it’s that pendulum swing of the kind of getting into masculine and feminine here. You go all the way over to the masculine but you’re abandoning the feminine. So then you get all the way back over to the feminine and you have this incredible resistance to the words that we’re mentioning here like structure and commitment. And so it’s about finding the point where they kind of meet and work together and they both hold and support each other that you’re mentioning. And I’m saying this because I know that at least a lot of the people that I interact with through Girl and Her Moon are very much in that moment-to-moment intuitive flow and it’s just following that movement of what feels good, what feels right in the moment and that’s great and that’s beautiful.
But that also needs that support of the structure, of the commitment, of the devotion that is satin to hold all of that and to really act as the door for it to be expressed through. I think when I look at a lot of, this is a bit of a side note I guess, but a lot of traditional business advice and things that. They’re very heavy on the things that we’re talking about but it feels as if they’re so far over there that they’re abandoning that internal movement and that internal flow. And so I think bringing Saturn and Pisces together, which I’m I guess we’re just going into now, is really pairing the two and see how they want to hold each other and they want to support one another and really they are pairs. We’re supposed to be working with both of them.
Issa: Beautifully said and I think the other kind of really, really, really big keyword that I didn’t mention here that I’m hearing you bring up is authority. Because when we’re talking and to me this is a collective maturity that needs to occur. Because when we are children and our disciplinarian parent says the father archetype says you have to clean your room before you go and play. You have to go to school even though you don’t want to. You have to do all of these things that you don’t want to do. It creates this authoritarian experience with all of the shoulds that we’re supposed to do in life and it puts them in a bad category. Instead of understanding the right relationship to these practices and when we move out of a child-parent relationship and we become our own authority in our life and say not from a scolding or shaming perspective but Issa what supports you?
What helps you, what processes allow your dreams to manifest into the world? What makes you feel really held and cared for and what structures contain you so that you rise bigger? Because when we’re really talking about the masculine and the feminine supporting one another which Cancer Capricorn absolutely does. The structure is there. That square is the building block of the masculine that is so sturdy and so strong that the feminine circle can come over that and move in all of its organic flows and forms and shapes and wildness but because it is held and contained it actually can go bigger. It can go wider. It can be more creative, more intuitive but it needs a certain degree of holding so that it can go up. If you’re going to jump you have to go down to go up. So it’s being able to really get that rootedness through the structure is going to allow you to use your feminine intuition at a higher level but you have to understand that this is all you. This is all your choice in what those structures are that do support you instead of restrict you.
This is not about repression which would be a lower octave of Saturn and because most of us have had a lot of repressed experiences through structure that have blocked us and limited us to being able to fly and be our whole selves and we’ve had more of external authorities telling us what to do instead of it being an internal authority making that. I think that that’s really why so many people have such a bad taste around it and of course we’ve had plenty of authoritarian governments to this day that are restricting us from being ourselves and so I understand why most people are under that mindset around it because unfortunately we’ve only used it in the lower octave in a lot of the ways not from the way that actually helps things manifest into the world which is really where sort of the turning offering point is in Saturn and Pisces is being able to use your own intuitive faculty to understand what are the disciplines that will allow me to expand wider bigger than I’ve ever been.
Jordane Maree: I love that. I still remember how almost mind-bending the experience was when I first left my more traditional job where you go through school you go through high school you go through work and you have set structures put in place you have these set to-do lists almost with dates and everything and I remember how just immense the experience was of leaving that and needing to somehow figure out my own structures for myself and listen to my own authority and be my own discipline. It’s a completely different universe to be living on and it takes time. I mean when again we’re talking about Saturn it takes time it takes trying this way and falling over and getting up and trying this way and learning every single time that, that happens but as you do and as you develop that relationship with it as you develop that relationship with yourself in this new way as well it is so much. It can’t even be compared to the rewards that are available versus that previous way that I was speaking about it’s a completely different way of living.
Issa: Absolutely and persistence and determination to more keywords for Saturn because it is much sweeter when you arrive at that goal after all the different trials and tribulations and then you appreciate it a whole lot more so I think that that’s part of the sweetness that comes from time is like I worked really hard for a really long time and it’s here now, I did it. If you try today and you get it today it’s exciting for sure but it has less of an impact on yourself at any level really.
Jordane Maree: I was reading a little bit yesterday and I already knew this but I read it again today of yesterday and it was there was a Roman God I don’t know when. I don’t know what you were in when I’m talking about this called Saturn who was the God of wealth and agriculture which I think speaks to Saturn really, really beautifully to this other side of Saturn if you think of wealth and you think of agriculture. These are two things traditionally where there is a lot of input commitment action devotion and just effort that you need to put in. And then on the other side of it these are two things where the fruits that you receive of that labor are abundant in nature. And that’s another thing to remember with Saturn is you’re not just working for the sake of it. You’re not just putting effort in for the sake of it. Saturn does reward and it does there is that time period where you’re putting in effort and you’re moving towards something and then in the receiving side of that isn’t going to be seen initially especially if we’re talking about Pisces we’re literally in the unseen realms. But just if it’s just this head down keep going keep listening to that internal pull and there are always results. There are always gifts on the other side. And like you said it’s so much sweeter through this process than getting it from elsewhere or if it’s instant or anything that.
Issa: Absolutely Saturn ruling Capricorn that’s an earth sign and that’s part of the gift of earth that we learn about is the process that it takes in order to which includes so much discipline and consistency in order to manifest. And with Saturn in Pisces will be really fine-tuning and honing that skill to witness the dreams within ourselves that are desiring to manifest. And then to build the structures so that they don’t stay in the dream world but come into the physical. This is a time where we’re going to really have the opportunity at least if we choose to use it to master the dream realms, master our own dreamscape, and how we bring inspiration into form, the full manifestation process ultimately. So there’s a lot of beauty in this coming three-year period but this is more of an ending time than a beginning, it’ll be the beginning more when we get to Saturn in Aries in 2026.
Jordane Maree: Do you want to speak to that a little bit more?
Issa: Yeah, well so when we’re talking about Pisces maybe let’s talk about Pisces a little bit to make that all land. So Pisces is ruled by Neptune and it’s represented by the 12th house. So in astrology there are 12 houses. So that is clearly the last one Aries is our first house and the beginning of the journey whereas Pisces is the end of the journey. And all water signs but Pisces does it the most it’s mutable water. It’s about dissolving. So when we get to the final phase of the zodiac progression or the house progression or the end of the cosmic journey. We’re dissolving structures we’re just — we’re our body starts to die. Our connection with spirit starts to open we sleep more we might daydream more. We’re less here and we’re dissolving the structures of this space. Now of course that’s actual life cycle but if it was you can take it into any example and into life it’s not always a complete ending that is a death it can be the transmutation where it’s this idea has had its full cycle and now we’re growing into the next phase. And so when Aries goes maybe there’s an actual up level into we’re still in the same category of what we’ve been building. But now it’s going to take a new octave of how it’ll be expressed.
So Pisces in its higher octave has transcendent abilities and it’s really about there’s also a very intense level of sensitivity and even psychic ability and where the veil is thinnest in the whole sphere of the zodiac. So we’re really kind of in the diffusion of self and where we’re returning to wholeness. We’re dissolving into the universe we’re letting go of the boundaries and the barriers. So much of the third dimensional world which is represented by Saturn Pisces is ultimately kind of holds the opposite energy where we’ve got the Saturn builder and Pisces dissolves any structure that it wants to build. So there’s an interesting inversion in this period as Saturn uses Pisces.
Jordane Maree: That’s so interesting because How do the boundless and the bounded then come together or the limitless and the limited so these kind of dichotomous natures of Pisces and Saturn. How do we place a limit on that which can’t be grasped or limited how do you place boundaries around the self when the self is ceasing to exist, it’s such an esoteric exploration where you really need to kind of drop a lot of mental grasping to explore.
Issa: The divine paradox. And also the expansion of understanding what boundaries are and what that means. Maybe it’s not material boundaries all the time what about psychic boundaries, what about emotional boundaries what about mental boundaries, and all of the different ways of containment that allow our spirit to expand. And I think that kind of complexity and working with the paradoxical nature of some of this and this certainly goes whenever we’re thinking about our own charts. We’ll see a certain piece of our chart that says you’re extroverted and then another this is your introverted in it how is it true. And it’s well actually I’m a complex being and in certain situations I’m introverted and in certain situations I’m extroverted and both are true. How can it be an and how can we bring in greater complexity so that there is an and where we expand and we can include both where it doesn’t have to be oppositional when it doesn’t have to be binary but tertiary.
How can we find the gradiation and the full spectrum instead of focusing solely on the poles of the binary so I think that there is a lot of benefit in contemplating what that means for you in your life and what needs to dissolve in order to have space for something new to be built. And what needs to be built that is in honor of containing the part of us that wants to grow. So I don’t actually think that it has to be a contradiction but it’s something to work with and to understand how it’s not a contradiction. It’s a good mental exercise.
Jordane Maree: I love all of that and I love that you mentioned boundaries because that’s something that I wanted to speak about today. I think with Saturn previously going through Capricorn and then Aquarius and now we’re moving into Pisces it’s when it was in Capricorn and Aquarius the boundaries that we were working with were a bit more clear a bit more, we could understand them we could see them. Saturn and Aquarius that was what 2020 it began. We all know the restrictions that were placed in in 2020 that we’ve been moving through they were very obvious they were very clear we knew what was happening. Saturn in Pisces, it’s a lot less this is what it is and it’s set as that or it’s a little it’s a lot less clear and obvious in that way and I love that you mentioned psychic boundaries emotional boundaries mental boundaries because I think I don’t know if this is my Saturn in Pisces speaking or many other things.
Even the word boundaries itself. I’ve had such an aversion to for such a long time growing up. And so I’ve really needed to create a new relationship with the word boundaries or with what boundaries are and I think with Saturn, it’s almost this seeing boundaries as the opportunity for compassion and for empathy and for relating those Piscean qualities. It’s seeing boundaries as an opportunity for that greater connection.
Issa: That makes me think of consent. It’s like when there’s consent I’m safe and I can choose this I gain agency through consent so it’s look see that containment created something new agency and now with agency I have the choice to choose this and when I say yes now we have a container where we have dictated the rules and we can go deeper in our relationship.
Jordane Maree: And I think that ties in really well too I mean kind of you mentioned psychic boundaries energetic boundaries we really need to I think this is somewhere that really needs a lot of tension in a lot of people to create those boundaries around us even when we’re there’s a lot of talk around empaths and around how difficult that can be for many sensitive humans and it’s the gift is there, the beauty is there, the empathy is a beautiful thing, sensitivity is a beautiful thing connection is a beautiful thing. Intimacy, compassion all of these things that are only possible when we do have that containment where we do have those boundaries. And those boundaries that do serve both the self and the other.
Issa: And this is going to be a period where cultivating those psychic and emotional boundaries is going to be a huge part of building that maturity particularly for anybody who’s got a lot of water or is very empathic he has a strong Neptune in their chart or a lot in their 12th house. For those super sensitive souls on this planet which kind of also brings us into some of the lower octaves of Neptune and Pisces because we’re dealing with hypersensitivity and so for people who have hypersensitivity environmental or otherwise there’s remember one of our words was diffusion and because you’re lacking in boundaries within your own container everything’s getting absorbed. And so when there’s no discernment the opposite of Pisces is Virgo. So in this period Virgo teaches us a lot of our solutions to how to resolve the lower octaves of Pisces and Virgo is about discernment and so we have to understand that we don’t need to have a savior complex where it’s every hurt winged bird needs to be cared for by me. That’s actually not our job potentially and we might even be stealing their own agency and ability to learn how to take care of themselves by doing it for them.
So as much as on the surface it can look like right action we are actually disabling that person from being able to learn the skills that they need to take care of their own wounds so that they don’t need to be dependent on another person to resolve that. So being able to really understand how to know when it’s right to allow something into your energy and when it’s we can bless them and allow them to continue on is an important thing that will be coming up with Saturn in Pisces because we have to understand that when we don’t take care of our own container our own needs that we too are worthy and have needs that have to be addressed and it’s our responsibility Saturn to address my psycho-emotional needs and therefore when we don’t do that when we don’t learn the skills and the tools to build those inner containers we form different pathways of escapism to get out of the discomfort.
And escapism is one of the lower octaves of Pisces and we can do that in all kinds of ways. That can be excessive doom-scrolling on our phone, that can be gaming incessantly, that can be shopping endlessly, that can be overeating, that can be drugs and alcohol absolutely. It can be sex, there’s so many ways in which we choose to escape our discomfort. But it’s when we’re really sensitive that we have to learn how to build healthy boundaries so that we can actually stay in flow where we can honor our own rhythm and needs and not start feeling abandoned by God or feeling cut off from the universe or where we lose our self to the other person who’s so in need. There’s a self-sacrificing energy inside of Pisces and oftentimes I’ve seen with clients and friends that they get into relationship with other people that they want to save that they see the highest good in them and then they get into savior complex and they lose their life to this other person’s need.
And so there is that discernment quality that Virgo asks to bring in and humility too. And the compassion, forgiveness, empathy, unconditional love, those are the higher octaves of Pisces, and also enlightenment, but when we don’t create the right containers that allow that to occur, then we can end up in seeking oblivion or escapism or all of the ways that we tune out instead of tuning in. And so, this time period is really helping us come into right relationship with that Saturnian energy of containment boundaries and responsibility so that we can cultivate true compassion and forgiveness in our lives and our relationships. When sometimes the most loving thing is, is to say, I’m not able to help you right now. As hard as that can feel another thing that feels a contradiction or a paradox, but it’s sometimes, it’s the whole, you’ve got to teach them how to fish instead of giving them a fish to eat. What is actually genuinely in service to the other person, not just what looks service on the outside. Because sometimes then we’re enabling. So we have to really be careful with that fine line.
Jordane Maree: I love all of that. And I wanted to just quickly speak to the escapism that you mentioned. I’ve found that when I am leaning into those kinds of behaviors, 99% of the time it’s because I am overwhelmed by energies, emotions, thoughts, perspectives, whatever it is that are not mine. It’s like I have the capacity to be with what’s mine, but that doesn’t mean that I have the capacity to be with what’s everyone else’s. And that’s when I find myself trying to tap out because my system is this is too much. This isn’t for me. I can’t handle all of this. So that’s definitely an observation.
Issa: Well, because it’s also the Pisces is the collective unconscious. And so when we don’t create those boundaries and everything is coming in, it can feel like I feel this way. And I think that, and that’s what it is. But you’re actually, if I sit and meditate enough where I clear myself out enough zeroing out, it’s like that’s not mine. I don’t believe that. That’s something that’s old, or maybe that society or the status quo says is normal, but it’s not my truth. And so I’m so glad you brought that up because it’s like one of the hardest things to sort of whittle out to figure out what is truly yours and not yours and in order to then have the discernment, and the forgiveness and all of it. So great point.
Jordane Maree: I think what else I wanted to say to that, and I hope this is relevant. It feels like there’s a piece of that discernment where it’s like it might not be entirely clear. This what I’m experiencing. I understand it. And this part of it is someone else’s and it’s theirs and this part is mine and whatnot. There is mystery to it. And when we are working with Pisces, there needs to be that surrender to the mystery of not seeing the entire. Pisces is all that is. When we’re here as humans, we can’t see all that is. And so when we are working with that discernment, for me, there needs to be a lot of trust that even just allowing energy, just setting the intention, what is not mine can leave me, or recalling what is mine to come back. I wouldn’t be able to do that if I were like what am I feeling right now? Whose is this? Can and trying to mentalize and understand it all. Sorry. I just got to a dis. We just got a little pop up and I have no idea what I was talking about, but I think that mystery is a part of it.
Issa: Yes. The mystery, the unseen and one of my teachers, Stephen Forrest, he was talking about this and it really hit me. It’s really sort of obvious, but I was like yeah. Which was how can we build faith, another keyword for Pisces, if we immediately get what it is that we want. I can’t build faith if it’s always this instant manifestation. So that faith and that trust element is part of Pisces. And so there has to be a certain kind of void. There has to be a certain kind of emptiness where you’re not getting an immediate feedback that affirms you and says, good job. You have to build that internal faith muscle within yourself that can see at least subtle symbols, start learning different ways that the universe is corresponding with you at all times and to help you along that way. But the higher you go into your evolutionary spheres, the less quick, the pat on the back happens, where you get affirmed so that you have a larger void so that you can build the faith, faith in yourself, trust in yourself, in the universe, wherever that needs to get allocated. It has the opportunity to grow when it is not answered right away.
Jordane Maree: And I love that. Absolutely. And for me at least, I think that a lot of that faith and that support comes from leaning into those higher octaves of Pisces where you do have access to that, the worlds of support that is available that we can’t necessarily see or feel or grab or intellectualize, it’s there and leaning into that often, or even just getting to a point where you don’t need to purposefully lean into that. You’ve got that you feel that support behind you. You feel that golden thread in front of you guiding you. That’s where, like you said, you don’t need those immediate results or you don’t need, I didn’t even know what it is. It’s also brings more joy in the journey, I think when we are leaning into faith in the way that you mentioned, the faith and the trust that you mentioned, and it becomes less about the manifestation of the thing and more about the journey and the experience and who you become throughout that process as well.
Issa: That feels like a really beautiful way to think about the Saturn-Pisces combo of Saturn bringing in the process, Pisces bringing in the mysteries and learning how to navigate that pathway so that you stay determined, so that you have the fortitude to keep up and keep going and to see how you are shape-shifted through that process. Pisces is also music. It’s the ephemeral and ethereal realms. It’s dance, singing, these are the feminine arts. And so any artist will tell you that becoming process-oriented versus goal-oriented is part of the creative process. It’s not just about, the painting or the product or whatever it is that you’re making, but the whole journey in getting there can be nourishing and exciting and fruitful and filled with blessings, not just when you get to the finish line. So learning how to really enjoy the process of the mysteries and to understand what it is that truly nourishes you and to be able to include that into the way that you create your process, because if you’re having that maturity and you’re coming into a greater level of inner authority in your own creation process, your life creation, self-creation process. Everything is inherently creative on this planet.
There’s not a person on this planet who’s not a creator. I just want to say that to you. If you are an accountant and you’re I’m not creative. Yes, you are. You are creating every single day. And also numbers are one of the most creative and magical parts of the universe. So even if you’re a numbers math person, I feel like the interviews I’ve heard from mathematicians discussing the universe are some of the most profound spiritual conversations I’ve ever heard in my life. So it’s like we are all creators. We all have access to the multiplicity of languages in which the universe speaks through us. And so, this is an offering for you to figure out what form life needs to take so that you are in that creative flow, sharing the brilliance that needs to come through your hands, through your voice, through your eyes, through your ears, through your touch. So I think that there’s a heightened of intuition that will also come in.
And this is also, in my opinion, part of how the future is feminine. When we focus on process instead of goals, when we are okay with not having answers, when we can be in that void and that mystery and deal with the unseen and to holistically see life instead of just seeing the physical part of life. But the fullness of life is a lot of life is not seen. Our minds aren’t seen, our emotions aren’t seen, we’re all energy, but there’s a lot of energy that’s not dense enough to be seen. So, if it’s in that place, it’s a returning to seeing the world as magical, as being as connected. To me, that’s Saturn in Pisces very much. And, you have Saturn in Pisces and I have Neptune in Capricorn on my ascendant.
Jordane Maree: Bless it away.
Issa: So you’ve got it. But it’s like it gives me that same kind of Saturn Pisces experience within my chart. And, Saturn or Pisces can also be confusion. Confusion is also part of the process of clarity. We act confusion and clarity are two opposite things, but they’re one thing on a spectrum. At what point does that confusion become clarity? At what point does clarity become confusion? You know what I mean? It’s like this is the other side of the coin. And so this is about reuniting with the feminine part of the process and allowing that intuition to be part of our guideposts along the way and to set up our structures in a way that leaves space for the mysteries to live and to be okay with not having answers in every moment, because those are all masculine energy things. So this is part of us in all genders being able to return to the feminine and leaving space for the feminine to live in our lives.
Jordane Maree: I really love all of that. When you were talking about creation, and again, not just creating a piece of art, but creating as we live, the living, breathing, ever-present act of what we’re calling manifestation is creation. And what I think is really present with Saturn and Pisces is you can’t really create from a space of forcing when these two are pairing up. There’s such a need of surrender into the piece of creation. And it makes me think of, there’s this Taoist saying, and I don’t remember it completely, but it’s something like there’s times where you will flood the Tao with yourself, and there’s times where you empty yourself to let the Tao flood you. Or it’s a lot of the Gnostic Christianity or even Sufism beliefs are emptying the self in order to be filled by the divine. And so that way it’s creation is filling you and working through you, and there needs to be that surrender involved because you can’t control creation.
You need to let it move through you. And that’s been — having Saturn and Pisces, I can see that so clearly throughout my life. The biggest and most beautiful and most fulfilling and aligned things that I’ve been able to build or experience in my life. If we go back when I was a bit younger, I wasn’t even aware that they were happening. There’s that much surrender happening. Coming a bit closer to where I am now, I have a bit more of awareness and a bit more of sight or intuition even where I see what’s happening, but it’s like there’s an element of, I’m not enforcing this. I can’t force. And when I try to force things, it does not work. Doors slam in my face, doesn’t happen. So there needs to be that element of surrender while at the same time also being deeply in tune with the process of what is happening where Saturn is asking you to then create those structures. But it’s like the energy or the creation is informing the physical action that needs to be taken place or informing the structures to hold this, whatever it is to begin to move through.
Issa: Yes. It’s divine timing. I could definitely see Saturn and Pisces as divine timing, earth time. And this energy of letting go, of dissolving, of removing all that is no longer true, is no longer you, so that you can leave the space to be filled with what wants to come in, which is this next three-year period can definitely hold a lot of time of loss for a lot of people. This is a dissolving of our structures and depending on who you have been in the structures that be, there might be more that needs to dissolve in your life to make space. And without leaving that space, we can’t fill it and manifest what’s next when we hit Aries in 2026. So I would really welcome people to trust in whatever is dissolving in your life, a relationship, a job, a home space, whatever it is that is leaving or seemingly to disintegrating right out of your hands, even money, where it can just kind of fall through your fingers.
Trust that it is being removed because it is not spiritually aligned with your life. It might be aligned with the status quo’s idea of what you should do, but not what your soul feels is your highest good. And even if it is removed and there is spaciousness between that and a resolution to be able to stay in the faith and in the trust in yourself and that the universe is always providing, that it will get filled with something that’s more in alignment as long as you’re staying in your integrity with your values, your morals, your needs. We still have the North Node in Taurus for the first couple of months of this transit. And simplifying your life is part of liberation where less is more right now. So if things need to be leaving, it’s because it’s about getting, to whittle it down to the most fundamental core pieces that actually create sustenance in your life instead of, the jails that you signed up for.
Maybe it’s that job that gives you a ton of money, but you lose everything else in your life in order to maintain it. Is that really sustenance? Is that really sustainable long term either? Is that really the best way for you to live your life? And maybe the answer is no. And if it’s something that is getting removed for you, that’s something to really pay attention to and to have the humility to say I don’t understand why this is leaving. But if it is, how could it be true that this is in divine order? Divine order would be another one as well as divine timing. And so, really being able to trust that process, even though it will only arise in its own timing, not yours. So the more simplified your life can be so that you can minimize your overhead and be able to manage the potential space between answers, the easier it is to have grace with the process.
So I would really welcome people to let go of anything that has really high bills or things that keep them imprisoned or in their own slavery to their job or to other people or whatever it is that creates dependencies and doesn’t allow you to get clear about what is yours and what isn’t, because we just have to keep maintaining this structure, because we need it to stay alive. The more that you feel that way about any element of your life or any person or job or whatever it is, the more that it becomes difficult to answer those questions and to let go of yourself and to answer them truthfully.
Jordane Maree: I would also extend that into inwards as well. The letting go of the selves that we thought we were, that are very scary to let go of, that may have us feeling lost, confused, empty, unsure of the self. And again, it’s that opportunity to be filled by that vaster self or whatever you want to call it. So are you feeling good to move on to Saturn Returns now?
Isaa: Let’s go into Saturn Returns. So, with Saturn Returns, so we can kind of build on what we’ve learned already about Saturn, which is that ultimately, we’re growing up. Saturn is teaching us how to grow up and mature and to become that crone or become that elder in our life eventually, which from my perspective, we need to shift that into being one of the highest honors that we can reach in our life because that doesn’t come just from age alone. How many people are 70 some years old and we’re you could be 15. So we can think of dozens of people up there. So to really work with Saturn gives you the honor of becoming an actual elder on this planet, which we need a lot more of and to become a guide to those younger. So when we’re dealing with Saturn cycles in our chart, each house in the zodiac wheel is a sector of our psyche. And so as Saturn goes around taking about 29 years to do so, to come back to the same place it was when you were born, also known as a return, it is building each area of the psyche.
So until you are 29 years old, you are not fully formed because Saturn has not come around to those areas of your chart to build that part of your psyche because Saturn’s our builder. So we have usually two Saturn returns in our lifetime. I think we may start having three, depending as people start aging differently and staying on the planet longer. But for the most part, we kind of deal with two Saturn returns, which happens around 28 to 30 and then around 56 to 59. So in the first Saturn return period, we are growing up in kind of the more traditional ways that we think of where it’s like maybe you’re buying a house at that point. Maybe you’re at a place now in your career where things are starting to stabilize. You’ve got a couple of years behind you. You’re not at the entry level job anymore. Maybe you’re choosing to get married or maybe you’re choosing to have a child, your first child at that point. It’s kind of a threshold where we enter into the grown up part of our life. We start to enter into midlife.
And from an EA point of view, evolutionary astrology, we would see the first 30 years of life before we have that return as just karma. So we are bringing in all of the karmic experiences from our past lives that we want to work on and resolve in this life into our consciousness. And we can’t bring them into our consciousness unless we have an experience with it. So the first 30 years is really just about onboarding all of those old past life experiences that we want to address this time around. And then once you have that first Saturn return period done, and also to say, as far as timing is concerned, whenever you have these larger cycles, Saturn being kind of the beginning of really large cycles, you’re going to feel it two and a half years beforehand and two and a half years afterward. Your Saturn return period is really kind of a five-year window where you’re going to feel it.
And the earlier part, before you get there, it’s called the balsamic phase. And the balsamic phase is really where the tests lie. And that goes for all cycle returns. So even in your birthday, your solar return, when the sun comes back to where it was when you were born, in that balsamic phase, the month before your birthday, you get all of your tests. Do you start noticing all of those things that are your triggers or your challenges, and you have the opportunity to pass the tests. And then you get your birthday, and then you graduate, and you move on to the next phase. It’s the same with Saturn, but the larger the cycle is or the longer it is, the larger that window is where we feel that. So with Saturn and Pisces, let’s say you’re born in the middle of it at 14 degrees or something. So you’re going to particularly start to, you might have already started feeling it as in the last couple of months, but especially once it enters into Saturn and Pisces, then it graduates in intensity. And now you’re really, really feeling it in a hard way up until it gets to your placement.
And then when it starts to separate and go beyond that, then you’re going to also really intensely feel it as it finishes those last degrees of Pisces. And then once it moves into Aries, you’ll definitely get an energy shift, but you might still feel a bit of challenge there. But as it’s separating, it’s not as difficult usually as when it’s closing. So that’s kind of just more about cycles.
Jordane Maree: That’s so interesting because I was going to ask for those that have Saturn and Aquarius that are finishing their Saturn return, what is this time about for them?
Issa: So when it’s separating and you’re moving into the next window. It starts to correlate. Once you’ve had your Saturn return, then you start moving into your progress charts. So you start having correlations with early childhood. So once you have that return, now you’re at year zero to one. And so you can look back at zero to one and say, you’ll see a connection to what that was to now. And of course, your parents will probably have to inform you of that if they even remember, but you’ll start having that. And of course, once you, let’s say, get into your seventh or eighth year after your Saturn return, now you have the cognition potentially to remember that yourself about your childhood. And so you can be what was my seven-year-old year like? Because now I’m 36 and there’s a correlation between the two. And I actually can remember that time of my life, or potentially. And so, then you start having those correlations and you start seeing the next step in the kind of synergy.
Jordane Maree: What’s available. That’s so interesting. I didn’t know any of that.
Issa: And if you are going through your second Saturn return, you can also think back to your first Saturn return because that is going to also have those correlation points. And then you can also think about year zero or, if you’re in that balsamic phase leading up to the Saturn return, you can talk to your parents about your conception. How was your mother’s pregnancy? What was going on in their relationship and all of that, because there is that connection too. I was reading some interesting articles about, this isn’t really substantiated, but it was something that was kind of percolating in curiosity. And this woman was talking about how her mother had two children and the way in which they were in utero in her belly, it’s the way that they behaved, it was exactly their personality was when they came out. And so they were looking at conception charts to understand what that personality was like. And it seemed from a lot of different people looking at conception charts, that there was an actual connection there beyond just the needle chart. So it’s something interesting to ponder. I don’t necessarily know that it’s true or not true, but it makes sense to me.
Jordane Maree: That’s something that I just the experience of someone’s birth, that’s something that I would really actually, I want to explore further and how that is this greater representation for something more. I even don’t remember what book it was in, but there was some astrology book I was reading, feel a bit bad for not knowing the name of it. But it was talking about the Ascendant as well as planets on the Ascendant having a correlation with their experience of birth. And I don’t know about you, but for me, it was so spot on with my Neptune Ascendant and such a almost indecisive birthing of me.
Issa: That’s interesting you say that because I was three weeks late and I also have Neptune on the Ascendant. So it was just sort of when is this going to happen kind of thing. I was actually supposed to be a Pisces. So I was supposed to be, early March, but it was late. Sorry, I lost my train of thought there. Bring me back.
Jordane Maree: I don’t know what we’ll talk about before birth. I got excited about that.
Issa: There’s our Neptune Ascendant.
Jordane Maree: I don’t have a lot of things to kind of add to this section of our conversation because my Saturn return starts tomorrow.
Issa: Is the actual exact tomorrow? Are you a zero degree?
Jordane Maree: No, not quite. For Mustafa, actually my partner, he’s zero degrees. It literally starts tomorrow. Mine’s a little bit later. I think technically it’s actually next year. But I think the experience of it is kind of starting a Saturn moves into Pisces. But I wanted to really, you’ve got a perspective that goes beyond where I’ve been. And so I really wanted to make the space for that. And I guess, I don’t know whether it’s relevant to ask about a lot of your own invitations or understandings or journeys of maturation that came through your Saturn return, or if there are some that feel applicable to the whole general experience of a Saturn return.
Issa: Because I’m at my Saturn square now, so I’m at the next graduation. So you can pretty much look at seven year cycles to hit your turning points with Saturn. And I will say, because I had my Saturn return rocked me pretty hard. Typically speaking, from what I hear is that usually one of them is really difficult and the other one’s a little bit breezier. Not to say that it’s nothing, but I think, I don’t know. I’m just thinking about most of this chart and it being tomorrow because, it’s interesting that Saturn is ingressing into Pisces with the full moon in Virgo, the opposite of Pisces. So, that’s going to bring in a real bang and a punch into the explosion of the intensity of his own Saturn return or anybody else who’s also at zero degrees. And, I think that from what I’ve seen with working with different people, it really depends on your relationship to Saturn. It’s like if you and I would dare to imagine that for most, for the people who have Saturn in Pisces and who are about to go through their Saturn return period, it’s this is an energy, what we’ve kind of talked about in regards to Saturn in Pisces today, that’s an energy that they’re living their whole lives with.
And so, a birth chart lasts a whole lifetime where the rest of us are going to have a two-and-a-half-year study in this topic. And so, this is something that, stability is kind of not necessarily in the nature of Saturn in Pisces. And so, there’s a lot of growth, I think that will be coming for those who are going through their Saturn return in Pisces. And realizing that amping up spiritual practice. And when I say spiritual practice, it doesn’t have to mean meditation and prayer and mala beads or rosary beads or any of that kind of stuff. It doesn’t have to be religious by any means. It can be music and dancing or fishing or bird watching or forest bathing. Whatever allows you to come into relationship with what’s beyond the confinements of the earth plane. Even if the earth is part of that. Because I think it’s both. I think it’s back and forth. It’s being able to say there’s more than just the physical world. And to be able to say that the physical world is filled with spirit. It’s both and it’s seeing this tree is seeing God.
And that is not the limitation of God all at the same time. So, being able to bring back holism, into our life to see the interconnectivity of all things and to really learn how to really work with that. I think this is a beautiful time to surrender to those creative desires that are in you that are wanting to come through. And to really figure out what discipline means for you and how to incorporate that in your life so that you can access more depth in living. And for it to be that kind of question of what kinds of structures build nourishment in my life? What kind of structures and consistency would allow me to grow and deepen? What parts of myself do I need to forgive and dissolve so that they don’t come into my next phase of life? There’s a challenge in building when it comes to Saturn and Pisces because it wants to dissolve. It’s like building on quicksand. But maybe we need to build in the ephemeral world. Maybe we need to build in the nonphysical world.
And it’s about building in those structures. Does that mean something online? Potentially, it could be something in that realm. That’s a little bit more Saturn and Aquarius, though. But it’s more about being able to work with spirit to help you build and to trust in their guidance for informing you about what’s the next step. You might not be given the whole process at once, but you might get the next step of what to do. And then do that. Trust that that’s enough, that you know enough to do that. And then when that’s complete, wait for the answer and what’s next after that. And to not try and fill in the blank, but to allow it to arise in its own timing. So I think in a certain sense, especially for those who are going through their first Saturn return in Saturn and Pisces, this is the first time that for you, Saturn’s going into your third house. So this is going to open up structures around communication, friendship, getting yourself out there, building spiritual community of friends but really and doing it at regular intervals.
And Saturn helps us get past what we want to do, because we never want to do something that feels uncomfortable. Whatever uncomfortable means for you, the exact same thing is joy to somebody else. So it’s but whatever is uncomfortable for you, you never want to do. However, we can also see the validity of doing it and why it would be beneficial to our lives if we did do it. So it’s like if I can hold both of those things and say, this makes me really uncomfortable, I don’t really want to do it, but I understand why it would be helpful for me. So how can I build a structure that supports that to occur regularly in my life so I can get past that discomfort, and I can trust that there is more to me than whatever my first experience is with that thing that I’m uncomfortable with? To have the humility to realize that even if that makes me really uncomfortable now, that once I practice, once I am bringing in my determination and my consistency and doing it, I will not feel uncomfortable eventually.
And then it’ll be potentially one of my greatest joys in my life, but you have to trust that there’s more joy available to you than you’ve experienced yet. And then for people who are in their second Saturn return in their late 50s, this is the second time around that you’re getting to have that connection. So the last time that Saturn was in Pisces, it was 1993 to 1996. So you can think back to that period of time, what was going on, what was dissolving in your life then, what were you letting go of? And also, what were you building more in the spiritual lens of your life or the non-physical or the art in your life, the creative part of yourself? And what is asking for a renaissance? What is asking to be taken to the next layer of that experience? And we also do something kind of interesting with Saturn returns in that, in the first 30 years of your life, you think you’re one person, you have an idea of who you are. And then after, when you get into that separating part of life, that’s where you’re at the very new beginning.
So you can, for Girl and Her Moon members who’ve been working with moon cycles, those cycles of the moon are the same with other planets. That’s really just the cyclical nature of the process of development. So, as I was saying, the balsamic phase is the closing part of the cycle. And then you have the new phase of the cycle, which is the new moon. So, new moons can also be hard. That’s why when you’re just at the beginning of that part of the cycle, it can still feel challenging and in the Saturn return window, because when we’re in that new phase, we’re fully in the darkness and we don’t know what’s coming. And we’re sitting with trust and faith and we’re having to fill the void with our desires. And we’re working with our courage to courageously express those desires so that they can be fulfilled. And, we’ve got Jupiter in Aries right now.
So it’s like in this very beginning part of Saturn coming into Pisces, we have that courage coming to support us for a couple of months to fill that void with our instinctual desire and to be able to trust in our ability to know what it is that I want and that I am. And to allow the parts of yourself to dissolve so that it can be filled with this new part of yourself that wants to arrive. And then it’s like we can really have the humility, especially when we’re at that second Saturn return to have this tertiary experience of our self. Because that first 30 years, we think we’re one thing and we hit the Saturn return and we flip and we become the opposite of what we thought we were. And so basically we’re learning the other side of our polarity. And then when we get to the second Saturn return period, we flip into the third space that was neither the first or the second. And so you’re getting a facet to yourself almost. And so, it can also be very difficult. But it’s like the difficulty really comes with resistance.
As all things really do. It’s like part of the fear, because a lot of fears can come up in Pisces too. And a lot of the fear is about being engulfed by what is unseen, what is unknown, feeling nervous about trusting all of that. So we can really, a lot of our fear body can really come up and, collectively this can be a time where our fears really manifest too. So that’s a little bit of kind of the lower octaves, but something that we need to be willing to contend with, because part of the blessing of manifestation of the physical world is that we see the unseen. That’s the only difference, now we just see the unseen. And so if we have those different demons inside of us, those different fears and terrors that hold us back, that are really actually our abusers, that are really the ones containing us, when they manifest and we see them in the world, then you’re like that’s not true. That’s not right. I’m not scared of you. you need to leave. It feels different than when it’s the internal bully.
And so it’s we can call it what it is and we can dismiss it, much easier, I think in a certain way, because it’s in its realness, we can remove its power. And that’s also something very interesting to think about too, in this next three years is that there is a disillusion of the status quo that is going on. So those who have been in power will likely be experiencing that quicksand and losing their power in the way that they knew it to be. But of course, inside of that is the grasping, trying to hold on. So things can get pretty gnarly. I anticipate the next three years to, as you were mentioning, it’s like it was very clear what was going on when Saturn moved into Aquarius, we immediately got into COVID and we saw the restrictions and the surveillance and all of the stuff that was happening. When an outer planet moves signs in that time period of when it moves, a lot tends to show up.
So in this month, having two outer planets that are moving means that March is going to be filled with all kinds of things that we kind of just have no idea what that means. Aquarius is sudden, unexpected, and Pisces is the unseen and the mystery. So having them in this sort of combination for the next couple of years, not to create paranoia, because that’s not really helpful, although certainly a lower octave of Pisces, but it’s like being able to be aware that we aren’t seeing the full picture and to be able to just hold that simultaneously as while you are taking actions in integrity. And the more that you can stay on tune with your soul and your highest self, those who are building humbly and with integrity will start to rise into the leadership as the old leadership falls. So, there’s a real shifting of power at this time. And that gives us all the opportunity, especially if you felt the underdog in this last period, to be able to rise up and to start taking your place amongst, coming into a state of power that you might not have experienced prior to now.
So keep having that trust and faith in yourself to keep showing up in that integrity and to see how that carries you through and up through this time period. And because we’re all going to be in a deeper level of sensitivity, understand that in order to manage that sensitivity, that’s really the reason that we’re suggesting to come into greater consistency with spiritual practice and tuning into yourself, because there will be these echo chambers that can be very difficult to get out of. And if you can have a place of silence amongst the trees or, in a natural setting, then you have the ability to get out of the collective fear mental loop that might be in the background and to tune into the higher octaves that are also available to you. And doing that consistency is going to allow you to manage the difficulty of the term oil and chaos that may be happening outside and around all of us.
So, because Pisces, Virgo, Axis is also chaos, it’s a crisis point, but it’s about transmutation. So we get to alchemize and transmute the energies that have been. And so, a lot of people are certainly looking for relief from the last several years. And I would say that the next three-year period is going to be the hardest of the decade. And we’re really leading up to 2026. We’ve had a lot happen so far in this decade, but 2026 is really the pinnacle. So we haven’t seen anything quite yet. And so, work with your practices to help guide you and to stay sane throughout the next couple of years. And again, not to be fearful, but whatever we focus on will expand. So focus your energy on enlightenment, on surrender, on divine will, on trusting yourself, on coming in deeper connection with all of the support at every holistic level that’s available to you. And you will be able to be the surfer riding the wave in this crazy tsunami.
Jordane Maree: I was just thinking, you mentioned that Saturn in Pisces, the people that are beginning their, or having their Saturn return over the next few years, this is the energy that is in our charts. This is the energy that we’re experiencing and living out every day. Do those, and this is for every transit, people that have the natal placements that we’re talking about experience these transits in a different way to those who do not have those placements?
Issa: Yeah, for sure. If you have it natally, then you’re going to have a conjunction that happens when it’s in transit. So it’s considered a hard aspect. The hard aspects can feel hard, they’re more intense. So that reminds me too of what you were saying about the planets on the Ascendant and birthing from the Ascendant. I think that’s what I was going to say earlier. Came back to me. But we birth through the Ascendant. So the planets that are around the Ascendant matter, and especially if you have a lot in your 12th house, we birth from the 12th house through the Ascendant. That’s the ecliptic portal that we come through and we separate and individuate into Aries in the first house. So that’s also why spring equinox is such an important time period and where the veil opens and a thinning of souls to come through, because, particularly spring equinox, because that’s the beginning of the whole journey and the end. That’s why Pisces is the beginning and the end.
So it’s all. And if we have a natal placement of a transit that’s going on, we’ll be starting a new cycle with it. So we will feel it stronger and also depending, it can also feel less foreign to you and easier because it’s something that you’re used to, but it just kind of depends on what the exact placement is and then how it’s aspected in your chart as to what your relationship with it is. It’s not quite easy general question. It would feel different for everybody.
Jordane Maree: No, I was just thinking in terms of those that are experiencing their sudden return, there’s the element of the return taking place and the element of almost for me, I was thinking returning to these familiar grounds. I know this world that we’re speaking of when we’re talking about this transit, because I live it. And so I was just thinking maybe my experience of it would be different to someone who isn’t living it.
Issa: I think so. It’s an interesting thing to kind of ponder. I think in a certain sense, it’s because you’re living it all the time and then sort of the collective is coming in and having a momentary experience with it. In a certain way, it intimately and it’s welcome to my world kind of thing. And in a certain way it can build empathy too, because especially if the Saturn and Pisces period feels difficult and then your sibling or something has that, you’re now I kind of understand what you work with all the time. So I do think that there is that to it. And then also kind of it depends. Because let’s say, maybe this isn’t worth saying, but it’s like if you have late degrees in Pisces, let’s say 29 degrees, the last degree, it’s like you have Saturn in Pisces, but by the time you were a couple weeks old, it was out of that. And so it can feel just as foreign to you as it does anyone else. Because until you have that first Saturn return, Saturn hasn’t gone through Pisces in your life, even though you have that placement. So I think that it’s a little bit of a both and that kind of goes for placements all around. Although I don’t know, I think that would be a great question to ask a lot of people and to see how they respond to it. Because I mean, that’s a great question.
Jordane Maree: I’m not sure. I knew that there is more here for Saturn returns. Do you have anything else you’d to share for those people that will be experiencing their Saturn returns that do have Saturn in Pisces?
Issa: I feel pretty good about what we’ve shared so far. I think we got pretty deep into a lot of things. I didn’t talk a whole lot about collective Saturn in Pisces stuff as much, but I feel we had a nice conversation about all of it. And if people want to have a one-on-one reading so that they can talk about it specifically for them, that’s probably a good way to continue the conversation.
Jordane Maree: I think that’s a really beautiful time for a reading when you are stepping into your, at least I would say, especially your first return, but also another. So I would definitely invite that.
Issa: Plenty of people too, just simply because astrology was largely not paid attention to. Even collectively now as many people are interested in it, there’s way more who still are fully unaware of it. So for the folks that are in that second return period, the likelihood that they knew much about astrology in their first Saturn return 30 years ago is pretty small. Not to say that they didn’t, but the majority of people didn’t. So they might not have really been paying attention at that time. And for different clients that I work with or have worked with at that age, and I’ve asked them about that connection, I’ve noticed some of them tend to struggle in thinking about it, as they just weren’t aware, I guess is what I’m saying. They weren’t thinking about their life in that way at that time. So the second return can be that wake-up call kind of time period of coming into that maturity and seeing themselves in a more holistic way, especially with Saturn and Pisces in particular, is deepening in your own spirituality and seeing the world from a more spiritual place.
I hope that with Saturn and Pisces, that there’s a spiritualizing of the general consensus during this period that helps them wake up more deeply to the spirit that lives in all things on this planet, and that brings more healing and more peace and more faith and trust in our connection to each other. So many people feel so disconnected. I think that’s one of the key words for a lot of people, especially in the last 10 or so years as we’ve increased our technology use. So this is an opportunity to come deeper into connection again and to see the magic in the world and to return to the beauty that is available in every single moment if we can have true presence to see it. So that’s my hope and my wish for this and for anyone going through their return that you absolutely have an opportunity to deepen that within yourself even more so than the average person. So know that you might get rocked a little bit harder, but you also have the ability to transcend even further too.
So just really stay in your trust in yourself and really ask for support. This is such an important time to be working with somebody to get that guidance and support. If we can’t do everything on our own, setting up structures might include a time with my therapist, a time with my astrologer, a time with my tarot reader, a time with my masseuse, a time with whatever, because we can’t do everything ourselves. We’re not meant to. We all are speaking the words of the whole to each other. So it’s get aligned and connected with your support systems so that you can prepare and get ready to have a profound, set yourself up for a profound transcendent experience instead of setting yourself up to escape and to tune out further. You know what I mean? Because ultimately regardless, you are preparing. Not doing anything is also the preparation for escapism. So it just depends on what you want to prepare. Do you want to prepare to escape or do you want to prepare to transform?
And so you can set up your day, regardless of how much money you have. So many things are completely free. Meditating is free. So this is something that’s accessible to all people in all circumstances. Although I realize that it can be much harder depending on what your circumstances are to have time for these things. But do your best to even just take a walk around the block or whatever it is that can give you a little bit of space and a little bit of a moment to connect with yourself in a safe way so that you can actually courageously ask these questions.
Jordane Maree: That was so great. Thank you so much. We’re at two hours. I knew that there was going to be so much to explore throughout all of this. I can only imagine the size of your notes and my morals are huge. So thank you so much for doing this with me. I really enjoyed it.
Issa: You too. Great to see you, Jordane. And I look forward to connecting with you all later.
Jordane Maree: Hello, lovely. Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode about Saturn in Pisces and your Saturn return. I’d love to remind you of our upcoming sale beginning on the 20th of March, continuing to the 27th. And if you are going through your Saturn return or someone who is, our Saturn return reading is a really beautiful and supportive tool to step into this new chapter of your life or their life. So I invite you to explore our readings, our membership, the equinox, the solstice. These are really beautiful times for us to be able to open the doors to greater accessibility for our services. And it’s a real gift. So if there is something that is calling your name, now is the time. And if you have any questions, feel free to email us or reach out on Instagram and we will chat to you there.
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⊹ Explore our hearts in one-on-one conversations.
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From topics like self-worth, creativity, expression, intuition, Soul, coming home to self. To astrology, numerology, tarot, channelling, business, energy, healing, akashic records and more. And topics that are undefinable and ungraspable. Exploring what it means to be alive, to be rooted in both our divinity and humanness, and returning to the space where they are one.
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